Muslims in the West
By Faraz at March 26, 2006 11:44 PM
Most of you people commenting don't know the situation of Muslims in the United States. I live in Atlanta Georgia, home to thousands of indigenous and immigrant Muslims. It is absurd to say a woman who covers herself is "submissive". The virgin Mary wore a veil, and for you to say a woman has to expose herself to be successful in life just shows the pathetic view of life you have. I know many Muslim converts... they convert because they study Islam straight from Islamic sources: Quran and Sunnah. They do not look at the cultural elements, for example the condition of women in modern Iran and Saudi Arabia. They look at the condition of women during the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madinah. Women worked, were educated, held property, fought wars, questioned authority, and played an influential role in society whilst still maintaining their faith, modesty, and the maintenance of their families...
and for the person that said Islam is just some fad and that Americans will go back to their original faith. I think you need a lesson on the history of Islam in the United States. A vast percentage of the slaves that were brought to the United States during the slave trade were Muslims. Abdn ar-Rahman Ibrahim Ibn Suri and 'Umar Ibn Said are two famous ones. In 1888, Alexander Russell Webb was one of the first Anglo-Americans to convert. In 1907, Muslim immigrants from Lithuania, Poland, and Russia found the first Muslim institute in NYC. The first mosque was built by European Muslims in Iowa in 1915. Then during the 1950's and 1960's African Americans who wanted to return to their roots started converting to Islam. First the Nation of Islam, but the majority of them have now joined orthodox Islam, and make up the largest ethnic group in the Muslim community. Then immigrants from Muslim countries began arriving from the 70-90's. and now many Caucasian Americans have started researching Islam and their has been upsurge in Causcasian converts.
and recently many Hispanics have converted to Islam creating Islamic hispanic institutions like Alianza Islamica and the Latino American Dawah Organization. Doesn't seem like a fad to me?
Thanks for the history lesson and repeating the comments of someone who is living in his own bubble. He writes:
""Women worked, were educated, held property, fought wars, questioned authority, and played an influential role in society whilst still maintaining their faith, modesty, and the maintenance of their families...""
You ABSOLUTELY don't need to be a muslem to be any of the above. You can have all the above rights without even knowing about islam. In fact, in muslem countries - which are examples of implementation of the faith in large scale - women lack most of the above-mentioned rights. Good example huh?
""Quran and Sunnah. They do not look at the cultural elements, for example the condition of women in modern Iran and Saudi Arabia. They look at the condition of women during the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madinah.""
Extreme ignorance! The Quran and the Sunnah or Sonnat or tradition or whatever you want to call it were originated in (Saudi) Arabia. Now you're telling me that you don't care about the cultural traditions of Islam in Arabia but care about the cultural SUNNAH (= TRADITIONS) of Islam??? Hello? I think you need to learn more about languages to know that SUNNAH and TRADITION are the same words.
Finally, I have to say it's very easy for the follower of any faith (and no faith) to talk and claim that their own faiths have the biggest number of followers/converts. But the truth is before out eyes. Just observe Muslem countries.
(at March 27, 2006 08:48 AM)
wow, i didnt know that only in medinah 1400 years ago women had the right to go to war, get educated and hold properties.
let's return to that time and enjoy life!
(at March 27, 2006 10:14 AM)
azize man, just look into what's going on in afghanistan, that sums up muslim faith for all:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/afghanistan/story/2006/03/060327_he-afghanchristian.shtml
(at March 27, 2006 10:59 AM)
Dear Talida,
As far as I know and I can reference this. "Sonat" and "Traditions" have two totally different meanings to them. Sonat in Faraz's exapmle refering to the Islamic sonat, and tradition refering to the exagerations and oversimplifications our societies have made to those core sonats.
Hope this help,
saman
(at March 27, 2006 02:50 PM)
Oh yes – you are so funny! Thus far, I have refused to write any comment on this kind of stuff as it is totally close-minded nonsense. For the god's sake what is the different between SUNNAH and tradition? Are you retarded? Or you have got it wring with SHARIAH, which, by definition are laws of the Islam that cover aspects of day-to-day life; However, SUNNAH is a human-made law yet SHARIAH is a kind of divine Law.
There are four basic kinds of Law; Eternal, Natural, Divine and Human. Human laws are laws made by human beings, and are valid only because men made them and are different every where, from Nigeria to Saudi Arabia, from Egypt to Indonesia. These laws are for the most part necessary because Natural Law and Divine Law are often not specific enough to guide human behaviour. Human laws are a consequence of the fact that, although man is by nature inclined toward language, he needs training. Training must come from others.
Excuse my French, but some of you try to baffle with bullshit here. Read more on Social justice as well as POLITICS AND RELIGION, it'd defiantly help!... and well about the so-called condition of women of those days, I’d prefer to say nothing as there are so many resources out there about "utopia" and its definitions and concepts.
(at March 27, 2006 03:19 PM)
Amir,
Are you French? If not do not expect me to excuse your French mate. I know the distinction between sonat, shariat and Tradition. sonat is inded put in place by humans, but not vulgar ones who are after "smell of female genitals" like some are :-)
Do excuse my french,
saman
(at March 27, 2006 03:31 PM)
I personally don't see any problem discussing issues of this kind here in this blog. After all it's supposed to be an open space for us to share all of 'our' ideas.
What I have discovered by experience is that for some minorities, e.g. the pakistani minority in the UK, religion becomes a matter of identity. A serious one. It's almost clear to me that it's not the "nice things in religion" that attracts most of them to mosques, it's the good feeling of identity and belonging to something, especially for the ones who neither feel British nor Pakistani nor Christian. And that's mostly due to their strict upbringing in families who are totally dependent on other family members for survival and are afraid of losing their loved ones (children) and loved things (wealth, ideology, etc).
For some reasons, there's a difference between the way different nationalities integrate into societies. I think I can explain one of many reasons: Many Iranian immigrants are highly educated or wealthy as they arrive in foreign lands. Their education and wealth creates enough security for them and garrantees a safe and normal comfy life. On the other hand, I have been told that many pakistani families arrived in the 50s or 60s as low-wage working class labour, and for them the only way to protect their rights and survive in a foreign country was to form communities and support themselves. That's why you still see 3rd generation pakistanis who look like as if they just arrived yesterday! Still many families send their sons and daughters back to pakistan for a (semi-)arranged marriage. It looks like they live in an island inside the UK or the US. I partly blame the families for this lack of integration. Although they're not 100% guilty, from their point of view that was the only way to survive (e.g. continue running the corner news-agent and shop safely).
Now I find it a bit strange (or funny) that people from these minorities who have never lived under an Islamic system, are trying to convince you and I that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is the best way to go.
I can kind of understand the nice feelings they get by being part of the muslim society of blahblah, looking different and feeling cool while hanging out with other bearded guys (while their sisters and mums are preparing delicious food at home), and the feeling of unity that praying together gives them.
I always try to patiently explain my experiences to them and tell them in a very friendly way why I'm not interested in joining their group or sect, and also why we don't need to become a hardcore muslim or join the local mosque in order to be decent people.
(at March 28, 2006 02:27 PM)
Dear Westender,
Fair comments which I agree with generally, but lets not allow our own experiences of what an Islamic state is like, affect our understanding of Islam.
Cheers,
SJF
(at March 28, 2006 04:15 PM)
Every religion including islam is a set of rules and stories and morals that only materialise in the real world. There is nothing such as an imaginary religion in the world
(at March 28, 2006 04:50 PM)
1-Discussions about religion are fine. Propaganda is not fine. I see Saman’s point in trying to show an image of Islam that is progressive (the post about inventions!), that it attracts even Americans, etc. But my point is that since nowadays this issue is quite sensitive, one who decides to present the other side of the story should be more careful of the material he/she presents. Of course if line of argument is that since Virgin Mary covered her hair then we should not assume covering a woman head to toe (which by the way was not how even Prophet Muhammad’s wives were covered) is a sign of being submissive, then you tell me what kind of debate is this. Even worth answering?
2-Religion has always been for most people a tool to claim ones identity and it is not particular to poor immigrants. I have met enough wealthy, educated Iranians (mind you, the “brightest” young students who study in the best universities in US) who have so much identity issues that every little opportunity they get, they will try to convince you that their religion is the best. Why? Because their experience in the US is the first to face them with the fact that there are others with different believes and nationalities who are as smart and as competent as they themselves. To some extent this self-questioning is positive. You become aware of who you are and how much you really believe in the way you were brought up.
3-It is not only the poor who create minority communities. Look at Los Angeles. Iranians have gathered there and support each other to feel secure. For some people they hang on to their religion to identify themselves for others it’s their nationality.
4-And lastly, who said that Virgin Mary was not submissive? How do you know? I have no objection if a woman decides to cover herself head to toe if she likes it. But in 99% case it’s the “man” who decides for her. Why? Because these men have such dirty mind that they think whoever looks at their women wants to sleep with her. This modern religious man shaves, wears short sleeve shirts, goes to the strip clubs, etc., etc., but his wife/daughter/mother has to be as women were 1400 years ago. Tell me about hypocrisy!! To all these men I would say, please wear a scarf and a roopoosh (manteau) in the summer in Tehran and go to work. Try to play football, ride a bike and see how “nice” it is. Then be a philosopher and preach to us about modesty.
(at March 28, 2006 10:02 PM)
In the west when hardcore muslims talk, they try to make their faith look mysterious, strange and unusual by replacing normal words by "mysterious sounding" ones:
Religious Law -> becomes "Shariaaaaah"
God -> becomes "Allaaaaah"
Clergymen -> becomes "Ulamaaaaaa"
Believer -> becomes "Mumeneeeeeeen"
Rescript -> becomes "Fatwaaaa"
(read them in a scary tone to make it more authentic)
So instead of "Clegrymen preached the believers to follow the religious law devised by the God", they would say:
"The Ulamaaa gave the mumeneeen the fatwa to follow the Shariaaah of Allaah"
If it doesn't sound scary enough, look at the picture of hook-handed Abu-Hamza for a while and it will definitely work!!!
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